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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/4/2010 12:49:39 PM
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doinkdom
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If Christians actually lived according to God's word...we'd all be called hateful, mean, etc. etc. etc.
What is hateful and mean is allowing a brother/sister to sit in the stew of their own sin and never tell them the truth about it or point them back to the Cross.
To use a few segregated idjits like Westboro, etc. as the entire Christian culture is ridiculous.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/4/2010 8:54:01 PM
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PurelyMellow
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This title is really discouraging to hear so I researched and read an article about this topic. I think she's just discouraged and does need prayer. She said that she's not giving up on Christ and through prayer, Christ will show her what is right and justice.
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Be blessed! (I am because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made)
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/4/2010 11:17:58 PM
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IE_2009
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quote:
If Christians actually lived according to God's word...we'd all be called hateful, mean, etc. etc. etc.
If Christians are called "hateful and mean" - and yet Jesus wasn't - then something is wrong.
The people that had the biggest problems with Jesus were the religious people, not the "sinners."
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 1:09:10 AM
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IE_2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
Anne isn't the first Christian to be pointing these things out. Books have actually been written about these things for the past few years. Instead of the world seeing the church as loving, taking care of the poor/widows, filled with compassion, lovers of Jesus, etc. --- the church is seen as hateful, hypocritical, political, greedy and judgmental.
Bull.
The church does the things you mention. It is loving, cares for people, and follows Christ.
But the ones you say are pointing out these things are spinning the church to fit their own agenda. They claim the church is "hateful" because it doesn't accept homosexuality and says that other religions are false...
Please re-read my quote. I said that this is how the world sees the church. To clarify, maybe I should have said, this is how many in the world see the U.S. Church.
In regards to books that have been written on this topic, probably the most well-known one is "unChristian" - which was written by the president of Barna Institute, David Kinnaman.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 4:22:54 AM
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lbarn003
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
In regards to books that have been written on this topic, probably the most well-known one is "unChristian" - which was written by the president of Barna Institute, David Kinnaman.
Another good book is One Nation Over God: The Americanization of Christianity by: D.A. Fletcher.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 4:40:33 AM
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lbarn003
Posts: 368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
Anne isn't the first Christian to be pointing these things out. Books have actually been written about these things for the past few years. Instead of the world seeing the church as loving, taking care of the poor/widows, filled with compassion, lovers of Jesus, etc. --- the church is seen as hateful, hypocritical, political, greedy and judgmental.
Bull.
The church does the things you mention. It is loving, cares for people, and follows Christ.
But the ones you say are pointing out these things are spinning the church to fit their own agenda. They claim the church is "hateful" because it doesn't accept homosexuality and says that other religions are false. The ones who claim the church is "political" because it is conservative are themselves even more "political" in their opinions, though in a liberal way.
In other words, they take things like Westboro Church and their shenanigans, and claim the whole of the church is like that.
All they have is spin. Or, as many of them call it, deconstruction.
Just because Christians can show compassion towards someone who is sinning doesn't mean that they are condoning the sin. I think the problem with many Christians today is that they don't know how to show compassion anymore. Some Christians forget that they themselves are full of sin. After all, where would any of us be if Christ had looked at us and said, "Why should I waste my time with you?... You're all full of sin, and always will be."
We ALL sin, and some Christians don't bother to get to know people, or even care what other people struggle with. Instead of showing the love of Christ, and His compassion, they go around saying "Shame on you."
And I'm not just talking about the Westboro Church...
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 8:15:28 AM
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Strider33
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When the world criticizes the church, sometimes the world is right, and sometimes the world is wrong.
Sometimes the world's criticism is right on target. We shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe that we have nothing to learn from the world. Sometimes the world's criticism is based on myth rather than fact or uses the wrong yardstick. We are not to be conformed to the world, but rather transformed by the renewing of our minds. This applies not only to each Christian as an individual but also to us a community.
With regard to the charge that Christians are ignorant hatemongers, I find that there is some of that in the church, but generally less than the media reports. Sometimes we slip over the edge from correcting what we believe is the world's rampant sin to condemning the world for embracing sin. It should not surprise anyone that this is seen as hatemongering.
I worry about the amount of antiintellectualism in the church. The church tends to reject 200 years worth of pretty good science out of hand, with only the most cursory investigation. The scientists aren't that stupid or evil, brothers and sisters. The church also tends to reject legitimate Bible scholarship when the conclusions challenge our notion of the truth in the Bible. The scholars aren't that stupid or evil either.
Not that scholars and scientists are unaffected by the fall of man. Just that they and their works deserve a certain amount of respect for intellectual competence and intellectual honesty.
On the other hand, the world has embraced a world view that says that there is no sin except for one: the failure to actualize one's self fully. Greed is good. If it feels good, do it. Your own instincts are your best moral compass. The world cannot see that this world view is doomed. Occasionally, individuals will be drawn by the Lord to the faith. And the Lord uses circumstances and people to do that drawing. But I do not see the world reforming from this world view en masse in the near future. Not without some kind of apocalypse.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 10:25:51 AM
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IE_2009
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Anne interviewed on CNN about her decision to leave Christianity.
Link here
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 1:18:39 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
If Christians are called "hateful and mean" - and yet Jesus wasn't - then something is wrong.
Wasn't He?
Jesus called the Pharisess hypocrites, blind, and snakes. That likely seemed "hateful and mean" to them.
He healed some people, but not others. He raised a few dead people, but not others. Out of a cemetary full of dead people, he raised only Lazarus. Around a pool of water there were many people sick and handicapped who were waiting to be healed, yet Jesus healed only one, so far as we are told. He did some good works, but the people were mostly wanting to be freed from Roman occupation, and He didn't lead a revolt and free them.
He keeps a woman from being stoned, but then tells her to not commit adultery any more. When a wealthy man says he wants to follow Him, He tells the man to give away his possessions, something he didn't want to do. He heals one man, but then tells him to not sin again or else something worse would happen to him. And if we extend Jesus' ministry to John the Baptist, well, no doubt Herod thought it was "hateful and mean" for John to speak out against his illicit affair with his brother's wife.
When parents keep a child from doing something harmful, that child will likely think that it's parents are "mean and hateful", when in reality the parents are showing love. The world is simply acting childish when it says the church is "mean and hateful" because it won't cave to what the world considers ok.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 4:39:05 PM
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IE_2009
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jazzact13,
Could you give me a few Scriptures that support your view that Jesus was CALLED "hateful and mean?" (Per my original post)
What you've shared are reasonable assumptions about some people not appreciating many things about Jesus. But, that's quite different than people calling Jesus "hateful."
By the way, I DO see your perspective and agree with you on many counts. But, I still see "hateful" as an extreme accusation - an accusation I never recall being made about Jesus.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 7:35:06 PM
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lbarn003
Posts: 368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
If Christians are called "hateful and mean" - and yet Jesus wasn't - then something is wrong.
Wasn't He?
Jesus called the Pharisess hypocrites, blind, and snakes. That likely seemed "hateful and mean" to them.
He healed some people, but not others. He raised a few dead people, but not others. Out of a cemetary full of dead people, he raised only Lazarus. Around a pool of water there were many people sick and handicapped who were waiting to be healed, yet Jesus healed only one, so far as we are told. He did some good works, but the people were mostly wanting to be freed from Roman occupation, and He didn't lead a revolt and free them.
He keeps a woman from being stoned, but then tells her to not commit adultery any more. When a wealthy man says he wants to follow Him, He tells the man to give away his possessions, something he didn't want to do. He heals one man, but then tells him to not sin again or else something worse would happen to him. And if we extend Jesus' ministry to John the Baptist, well, no doubt Herod thought it was "hateful and mean" for John to speak out against his illicit affair with his brother's wife.
When parents keep a child from doing something harmful, that child will likely think that it's parents are "mean and hateful", when in reality the parents are showing love. The world is simply acting childish when it says the church is "mean and hateful" because it won't cave to what the world considers ok.
I almost wrote this in my last post, but I didn't. Now I wish I did...
You're right... Jesus did show anger toward people... The Pharisees. He showed anger toward the people who were full of sin themselves, yet liked to point the other finger.
Jesus got mad because people made the house of God a den of thieves.... Trying to make a profit for themselves instead of giving all glory to God. (in other words, he got mad because the people were putting themselves first).
You missed the first half of the story to the woman being stoned for adultery. "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone." He showed compassion to the woman. Just because he said "Go and sin no more" doesn't mean he would have condemned her had she come back to him doing the same thing all over again. No, he would have said, "I forgive you Child, now go and sin no more". For Jesus forgives us multiple times for our sins. Do you think if she committed adultery again, yet asked Christ for forgiveness, that he would have said, "Sorry... I told you not to do it."? It's when we decide that are sins are "o.k." and acceptable that we get into trouble, because we let the sin "into our hearts". Jesus knows we are going to struggle with sin, even if we don't want to do it... We are human. Paul was very clear about this in Romans 6.
God loves the meek... Pride gets us no where.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 9:17:52 PM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
jazzact13,
Could you give me a few Scriptures that support your view that Jesus was CALLED "hateful and mean?" (Per my original post)
What you've shared are reasonable assumptions about some people not appreciating many things about Jesus. But, that's quite different than people calling Jesus "hateful."
By the way, I DO see your perspective and agree with you on many counts. But, I still see "hateful" as an extreme accusation - an accusation I never recall being made about Jesus.
Well, they accused him of having a demon, and of breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/5/2010 10:09:48 PM
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IE_2009
Posts: 217
Joined: 7/9/2010
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quote:
Well, they accused him of having a demon, and of breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath.
Yes, there were many accusations against him. I just remember him being referred to as hateful and mean. Again, going back to my original post.
When I think of hateful, that seems to be the direct opposite of everything about Jesus. In his very essence, every action, every thought, every behavior and motive - everything about Him demonstrated perfect love. Even though he called people out on their sins, why NOT call Him a "hater" - and yet today's Christians are often called this? I'm curious as to what is different about Christians today vs. Jesus. I have a feeling that it was because 1) Jesus never demonstrated even a hint of hypocrisy; 2) Jesus was more concerned with the hearts vs. politics; 3) ?
Just thinking out loud here at this moment. Not trying to cause a stir with anyone. I think that it's just an interesting thing to think about.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/6/2010 4:07:08 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
quote:
Well, they accused him of having a demon, and of breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath.
Yes, there were many accusations against him. I just remember him being referred to as hateful and mean. Again, going back to my original post.
When I think of hateful, that seems to be the direct opposite of everything about Jesus. In his very essence, every action, every thought, every behavior and motive - everything about Him demonstrated perfect love. Even though he called people out on their sins, why NOT call Him a "hater" - and yet today's Christians are often called this? I'm curious as to what is different about Christians today vs. Jesus. I have a feeling that it was because 1) Jesus never demonstrated even a hint of hypocrisy; 2) Jesus was more concerned with the hearts vs. politics; 3) ?
Just thinking out loud here at this moment. Not trying to cause a stir with anyone. I think that it's just an interesting thing to think about.
3) Jesus was (is) infallible. Today's Christian is not.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/6/2010 10:18:39 AM
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IE_2009
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quote:
3) Jesus was (is) infallible. Today's Christian is not.
This is part of my point. Christians can be unChristlike at times - because we're fallible.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/6/2010 3:37:54 PM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
quote:
3) Jesus was (is) infallible. Today's Christian is not.
This is part of my point. Christians can be unChristlike at times - because we're fallible.
I agree, but it goes deeper than that, for me.
If Christ was infallible, and He came across as "I'm right, and I know it", that seems appropriate to me. Maybe some of those listening might have taken his demeanor as arrogant or blaphemous. Those were people who had rejected His claim to be the anointed one, the Christ. (You and I, having read the entire gospel, and having accepted Jesus as Christ and Lord, see it differently.)
But if I come across to those around me as "I'm right, and I know it" and they think I'm arrogant, well they might just be right. A better statement is, "the Bible says it; check it out for yourself".
The modesty that says, "I might have gotten it wrong" is not false modesty, coming from me. It would have been false modesty coming from Jesus.
This is not to take away from your point. Rather, it's to add to it.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/6/2010 5:44:44 PM
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lbarn003
Posts: 368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
quote:
3) Jesus was (is) infallible. Today's Christian is not.
This is part of my point. Christians can be unChristlike at times - because we're fallible.
I agree, but it goes deeper than that, for me.
If Christ was infallible, and He came across as "I'm right, and I know it", that seems appropriate to me. Maybe some of those listening might have taken his demeanor as arrogant or blaphemous. Those were people who had rejected His claim to be the anointed one, the Christ. (You and I, having read the entire gospel, and having accepted Jesus as Christ and Lord, see it differently.)
But if I come across to those around me as "I'm right, and I know it" and they think I'm arrogant, well they might just be right. A better statement is, "the Bible says it; check it out for yourself".
The modesty that says, "I might have gotten it wrong" is not false modesty, coming from me. It would have been false modesty coming from Jesus.
This is not to take away from your point. Rather, it's to add to it.
This is true. Jesus most definitely is above reproach, and has every right to address us in whatever manner He pleases.
As for me...? I don't think I, or anyone else can ever be that worthy. It's o.k. to stand up against sin, but we should never stand up against the person.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/7/2010 10:40:18 AM
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backrowbaptist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
quote:
3) Jesus was (is) infallible. Today's Christian is not.
This is part of my point. Christians can be unChristlike at times - because we're fallible.
That is a point that Ms. Rice seems to be lost on.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
"If you can't suffer fools you're on the wrong planet"" - Unknown (to me)
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/7/2010 10:44:28 AM
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backrowbaptist
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Jesus wasn't called a "hater" because in Israel at the time there was no silly and yes, childish, liberal notion that opposing un-Biblical ideas and movements made a person "mean" and "hateful". That is a peculiarly modern failing in the Church.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
"If you can't suffer fools you're on the wrong planet"" - Unknown (to me)
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/9/2010 1:26:09 PM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
Anne isn't the first Christian to be pointing these things out. Books have actually been written about these things for the past few years. Instead of the world seeing the church as loving, taking care of the poor/widows, filled with compassion, lovers of Jesus, etc. --- the church is seen as hateful, hypocritical, political, greedy and judgmental.
Bull.
The church does the things you mention. It is loving, cares for people, and follows Christ.
But the ones you say are pointing out these things are spinning the church to fit their own agenda. They claim the church is "hateful" because it doesn't accept homosexuality and says that other religions are false. The ones who claim the church is "political" because it is conservative are themselves even more "political" in their opinions, though in a liberal way.
In other words, they take things like Westboro Church and their shenanigans, and claim the whole of the church is like that.
All they have is spin. Or, as many of them call it, deconstruction.
Amen.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/9/2010 2:11:01 PM
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lightbeamrider
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She wants to have it both ways. Legalize same sex marriage along with abortion and still be Christian. Her son is homosexual and writes literature from that perspective and at the same time provide lip service to Christ while denouncing the church through public interviews. Anne, you could have been a little more discreet about it. I would like to have illicit relationships with females 20 years younger that me and still be Christian but that is not part of the program. The fact your son is homosexual and you live in a gay community has had no effect on your decision to leave the church. I don't buy it. You have written ''adult'' literature and the last book i bought of yours is laced with homosexual themes. The Vampire Armand, which to me was a disappointment, because your earlier writings were far superior.
The first four books in your vampire series and especially Queen of The Dammed along with your Mayfair Witch series were far better than anything you are doing now. I have been a fan from the beginning. Noticed you quoted John 20:17 in the beginning of Vampire Armand and from your literature you have been toying with the idea of God and Christianity for many years.
I don't have anything against homosexuals personally. They have not done anything to me. Although i am constantly accused of hating them when i tell them their lifestyle is wrong. I have been called all kinds of names and told to shut up and now they bring Ann Rice up as justification for their position on same sex marriage which they been trying to pass in my area. Well it seems you have made your decision in a very public way and i have put your books on the shelf.
Am reminded of the book Tortured For Christ by Wurmbrand. In that book a lot of the Ministers make comprises with the Communists to try and survive. The Communists used the Ministers to capture Christians and put them in prison. Ann Rice compromises with the world. In the process is not doing the homosexual any favor. It is wrong and consensus does not make wrong right anymore than consensus has any effect on the laws of gravity.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/9/2010 4:21:14 PM
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jrodmc
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Let's see.
I like Jesus, I just don't think homosexuality is wrong.
I like Jesus, I just don't think abortion is wrong.
I like Jesus, I just don't like all those jots and tittles, especially all that patriarchal-based baloney.
I like Jesus, I just don't like other Christians.
Amen.
Same old junk, new day.
Point out sin, and you're a judgemental pharisee, with the emphasis on mental. Despite the fact that Jesus turned away alot more of the 'normal folks' than he did pharisees. Thousands of them, actually. And those normal folks were lumped in with the 'wicked and perverse generation' who were always seeking signs.
Hold conservative values, i.e., biblical sexual morality, infallabillity of scripture, historicity of the OT, and you're an intolerant bigot. You'd have to be, because, hey dude, it's 2010 already.
Cultures change. People's opinions change. Governments change. Channels change.
However, and thankfully, God does not.
By the way, why are we told to de-log our eyes? Hmmmmmm. So we can make a right judgement. Not condemnation, but conviction. Love, in this context, is "remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James can be soooooooooo intolerant, can't he? I mean, really? Point out someone's error? Oh my... He can't be talking to us, is he? Maybe he was writing to the Holy Spirit, to remind Him what His job is. Yeah, that's it.
The same scriptures that were being read when Roman emperors were in the process of having sex with young boys and making horses members of government, are the same scriptures being read today. [Oh, here's where your Greek scholars can point out the 400,000 grammatical typos in the extant texts, so they have an even better reason to ignore the scriptures. Or talk about how Paul was actually gay himself. Or some other deranged stupidity.]
< Message edited by jrodmc -- 8/9/2010 4:42:34 PM >
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/11/2010 1:16:38 PM
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oneGodonename
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When she mentions anti-________, whatever, she's talking about the treatment of those people, not necessarily the sin itself. I don't know if anyone said that already, but I don't have time right now to read it all. 
What she's saying is this: She loves Christ and will govern HERSELF according to how the Bible says that we ought, but she WILL NOT put a yoke around anyone else's neck, especially if she herself cannot bear it. Christians are to be Anti-sin, not anti-people. And by "supporting" something, she's only supporting the RIGHTS of a person to do as they wish as long as it isn't detrimental to those around them. The Ten Commandments protect us and those around us. GOD gave us free will and the church is constantly trying to take it away, even from those who are not a part of it. How can we require a non-Christian to live Christ-like when they neither know or want to know Him? Further, how can we require ANYONE to live Christ-like? The earth is the LORD'S, not ours. If He allows people to make the choice, who are we to take it away from them? We assert that America is a Christian Nation, well that's just like trying to tell Rome that Judea was a Jewish Nation and expecting them to pack up and leave. They still took over. God allowed it. And if I remember history correctly, America was established especially because of the hold the church had on the people; its attempt to lord over them and in the meantime getting rich and being pharisaical. We forget that little part of History--THE WHY OF IT ALL. When will we remember that God is in control? We are to give the sinner knowledge of Christ and walk after Him in our own lives. We are NOT to push our values and morals on people. Christ didn't even talk to the theif that had jeered Him on the cross. He had already rejected Him so He moved on to the one that wanted to be saved.
Anne Rice's flight from Christianity is really just a flight from Pharasiaical behaviors WITHIN Christianity.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/11/2010 2:58:03 PM
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IE_2009
Posts: 217
Joined: 7/9/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oneGodonename
When she mentions anti-________, whatever, she's talking about the treatment of those people, not necessarily the sin itself.
What she's saying is this: She loves Christ and will govern HERSELF according to how the Bible says that we ought, but she WILL NOT put a yoke around anyone else's neck, especially if she herself cannot bear it.
Christians are to be Anti-sin, not anti-people. And by "supporting" something, she's only supporting the RIGHTS of a person to do as they wish as long as it isn't detrimental to those around them.
GOD gave us free will and the church is constantly trying to take it away, even from those who are not a part of it. How can we require a non-Christian to live Christ-like when they neither know or want to know Him? Further, how can we require ANYONE to live Christ-like?
And if I remember history correctly, America was established especially because of the hold the church had on the people; its attempt to lord over them and in the meantime getting rich and being pharisaical. We forget that little part of History--THE WHY OF IT ALL.
Anne Rice's flight from Christianity is really just a flight from Pharasiaical behaviors WITHIN Christianity.
Very good points.
I do think that there might be some doctrinal differences that are mixed into her overall views. For example, I think that she is pro-choice concerning abortion, a form of "choice" that most Christians do not support in any way. And, I'm not sure where she stands on homosexuality overall (vs. legal rights that she wants afforded to everyone). These could be genuine doctrinal differences that other Christians would differ with her on. But, those differences don't automatically invalidate others points she has made, points that you've outlined above.
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RE: Novelist Anne Rice Leaves "Christianity" - 8/14/2010 1:34:55 PM
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Adea
Posts: 139
Joined: 8/14/2010
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I see in her a reflection of our society as a whole.
In our society many who claim christ and christianity embrace many worldly views. For example, many view going to church on Sunday to be the complete embodiment of the christian life and many see nothing wrong with sleeping around, doing drugs, ect.
Then there are those like her, who, if i heard the interview correctly (posted a few posts ago), are more political than religious. And want to fit God into their world view and are having a hard time doing so.
She is also limiting her view based on what she wants to see. For she acknowledges not all the good Christian people do. All the aid they send, all the health care the help provide, all the children they adopt and give better life styles to, in short all the sacrifices they make for the benefit of others.
She also is over looking all the historical good that Christians do, because of the driving force of the Love of God. Slavery has been ended in most corners of the world, a movement led by Christians of the time. Where ever there is humanitarian treatment of people, it is not hard to see active involvement by Christians.
So, I'm not impressed by her shallow view of things, her blind denial of good things done in the name of Christ. She is more concerned with a few personal items than with Christ himself.
But I do pray for her and her time of confusion. And it is my prayer for her that her time in the "wilderness" will lead her closer to God. Who she says she wants to be near to.
_____________________________
Daring to be Uncommon
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