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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 12:28:54 PM
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reebz
Posts: 1880
Joined: 12/6/2008
From: Indiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: reebz
Perhaps your girlfriend struggles with purity and feeels pressured that since she won't have sex she has to perform in Other ways? Just a thought.
That is a sad and difficult position to be in.
We should not make it harder on each other that it already is.
Yes it is - BTDT.
I want to caution the OP that even if he doesn't say - I expect yada yada, the fact that he thinks some intimate things are permissible outside of marriage sets up an expectation and therefore a pressure.
I dated a few christian men who refused intercourse but didn't see anything wrong with other things outside of marriage - even though they said they respected my decision against said things, the fact that they broadcasted what they thought was acceptable made me feel like it was expected.
I want the OP to factor this possibility in to why his girlfriend may have conceded.
-reba.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 12:36:43 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3275
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
The right answer is sex outside the covenant of marriage is sinful and wrong.
Oral sex - wrong
Intercourse - wrong Anything too specific can be worked around - you can find loopholes. It sounds to me like that is what you and your gf have been doing. Let me make it more basic and less specific by looking at outcomes instead of activities:
If a certain activity you guys do (if you kept on doing it to the logical end) results in either intense arousal or orgasm for either of you, it is sex and do not do it until after you are married. Period.
Several years back I was a regular on www.themarriagebed.com where this stuff is discussed in detail. An engaged couple was on there and both were orgasming just from kissing. (sounds strange but it can happen for some people) They thought it was great that they were getting all the benefits of sex (the physical relief and the emotional bonding) without actually having sex. The board members were somewhat divided. Both the Listowners and I tried to convince them that what they were doing was fornicating and making a pre-covenant bond that ought not to exist. I do not know if we succeeded or not.
While I understand your reasons for extending the guidelines given to us in Scripture, it should be recognized that these are extensions to what is given in Scripture and not simply interpretations of the Scriptural commands themselves. These kinds of hedges may be good in some circumstances, but not all.
One of the things that immediately jumped out at me when I read your definition was the idea of "intense arousal" being somehow by itself wrong. By that standard, there would have been many times that I would not have been permitted to be in the presence of my very lovely bride. One of the many reasons I choose to marry her was because simply being in her presence caused very intense feelings that would have crossed the lines you have provided, without any thought, motive, etc... involved that would have indicated sin in thought or action.
ETA: I don't think I am unique in this area. My guess is that many couples experience this same desire which is one strong motivator for getting married sooner rather than later.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 2:01:57 PM
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Scorpius-Maximus
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Very enlightening discussion.
As much as I am not clear on some things, I have to say I am pretty clear and in aggreement with the last poster. Is that not what brings two together, asside from "arranged marriages?" Sexual attraction, pheromones and arrousal? Yes, other things too but I am trying to confine the discussion to a sexual context.
Just for the record, it was not I who suggested "other things" and it was not from pressure from me, at least not that I was aware. You know how us men are, sometimes we don't know we are doing something women can point out in seconds. I had not asked for or eluded to sex. I knew of her Christian convictions and was happy with the relationship as it was.
Being completely honest here and yes, I seem to be going against what is biblicly correct; There not being a difference in morality between oral sex and intercourse, and have given in, or tempted, (willingly) into a sexual relationship, I wanted it all. To me it is a tease. (Take it easy here, being honest with the feelings.) To me there is a difference in intimacy, particularly now that I have been confined to only "other things") I understand either is wrong. It is still confusing and I am trying to understand.
So... The Bible, and you guys are pretty much in agreement, sex is out of the question untill marriage. You are probably correct in that it would likely shorten my idea of a "lengthy" courtship but I think I would fare much better not having sex of any kind than to have "other things" and not intercourse. Again, it just feels like a tease. It feels wrong for a lack of a better way of wording. I sincerely do not think she wants me to feel that way. I think she wants to make me happy and I reallly think she thinks "other things" are okay and I am trying to figure that part out. Thus, why I am here...
I lost both of my wives to substance abuse. I tried everything I could to help them both. They were both very different people in almost every way but substance abuse chewed them up and spit them out. They are still using addicts today.
I was working as a paralegal and taking care of my one year old daughter. My wife would be gone from the time I got home until 5 or 6 in the morning and be so whacked she would miss the bed and land on the floor where she would stay. She sold everything of value in our home and then started writing bad checks and taking out loans. When I was informed by the Sherrif's Department, with whom I worked, that they were coming to get her on 40 or so warrants, I tried for the last time to get her to get help. I would SOMEHOW make the money good and go with her and help her but she had to get help, and SHE CHOSE to leave us and run from the law. It was not up to me. I can not force a person to stay with me. She prostituted herself for years to support her habit, living in crack houses and waking up in ditches. She was raped repeatedly and I COULD NOT HELP HER. She has advanced Hepatitis C and is still using 25 years later. My second was similar although not nearly as serious, with alcohol as her drug of choice. Her social status was her vice and alcohol was her catalyst and it took her too.
As I said, I have been to years of counselling about both of these. They torment me. Guilt and shame are the hardest things to get past in my life, probably yours too, even with God's help.
You know, some times bad things happen to good people. Life isn't fair. It isn't necessarily my poor choices in mates that led to my failed marriages (could have been), any other bad decision but certainly not my infidelity. I know I was not perfect (i'm still not) but I have had enough couselling to know there was not a thing I could have done to save either marriage and they weren't like that when I married them.
This issue we are discussing about sex pales in comparrison. So lets please leave the two failed marriages alone, Okay?? Seriously, there is nothing you can say here that my cousellors and I have not already gone over many times.
This woman is completely different. She doesn't drink or do drugs. She does occasionally take a drag off a cigarette sometimes, under pressure, and I wish she didn't, but I can't stop her. She is nearly perfect as far as I can tell. I probably don't deserve her.
< Message edited by Scorpius-Maximus -- 7/30/2010 3:38:30 PM >
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 2:20:06 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3275
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Just for the record, it was not I who suggested "other things" and it was not from pressure from me, at least not that I was awarte.
Biblically, it is the man who is to take the lead in the relationship; not in the "I am the boss" kind of way, but with a gentle strength that draws her to follow your lead. An offer for "other things" from her should be met with loving but firm resistance and a heart to heart discussion. If she is unwilling to follow your lead in this area, this would be a very good warning sign that danger lies ahead in marriage.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 2:24:21 PM
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Scorpius-Maximus
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/29/2010
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Thanks benelchi. I feel your wisdom and appreciate your advice.
I have not had conversation with her about this yet. I want to get my own thoughts and feelings and spiritual direction straight before i approach her. Rest assured I will. Thanks.
Feeling better already.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 2:30:09 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 3350
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Just for the record, it was not I who suggested "other things" and it was not from pressure from me, at least not that I was awarte.
Biblically, it is the man who is to take the lead in the relationship; not in the "I am the boss" kind of way, but with a gentle strength that draws her to follow your lead. An offer for "other things" from her should be met with loving but firm resistance and a heart to heart discussion. If she is unwilling to follow your lead in this area, this would be a very good warning sign that danger lies ahead in marriage.
I think this is very wise. I will also say that when my husband and I were dating, I probably would have gone "too far" had it not been for his love and boundries. I am very thankful for that. VERY!
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 2:49:43 PM
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Scorpius-Maximus
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/29/2010
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I'm obviously out of my realm of expertise and I have a lot to learn. I've been in church all my life but have been taking God much more seriously and actually studying for the last few years. Obviously this is not my subject and I have only now had the, how do we say, intention to focus on this in particular as of just recently. Ya know?
Thank again for all the great dialogue.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 4:17:56 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4041
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
One of the things that immediately jumped out at me when I read your definition was the idea of "intense arousal" being somehow by itself wrong. By that standard, there would have been many times that I would not have been permitted to be in the presence of my very lovely bride. One of the many reasons I choose to marry her was because simply being in her presence caused very intense feelings that would have crossed the lines you have provided, without any thought, motive, etc... involved that would have indicated sin in thought or action. Hey - the church I went to in college (lots of young singles) refused to marry a couple if the leaders even suspected there was any sexual chemistry between them. They wanted no lust going on at all.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 7/30/2010 5:23:20 PM
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freetobehis
Posts: 57
Joined: 7/29/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
quote:
But it is harder to sometimes deal with the aftermath of not waiting.
True, and the ultimate aftermath is hell if we disobey God's Word willfully. To the OP think about which is worth more this current pleasure or your soul.
I strongly recommend you connect with an accountability partner at your church and with a counselor who is trained to help you heal from your past relationships. You are not ready spiritually for a relationship with this lady until you yourself are healed.
Right now all you have to give her is a wounded soul. Give those wounds time to heal and then see if you still want to be with her...it may turn out God has changed your heart in a way this one is not even the right one for you.
If she is the right one she will understand you need time for counseling and healing before anything else happens.
You said "you feel you are being denied the deep intimacy that you apparently need in a relationship" but the reality is until your soul is healed and you are in deep intimacy with God you are not capable of giving or receiving deep intimacy in relationship with another. That is true for us all. Marriage is meant to be a spiritual unity as much as any other kind.
I strongly agree with Buckifn. I have been in the same situation. It is extremely difficult, but possible to accomplish. I think part of the frustration for you is the mixed messages you are getting from her. You will need to take a stand and abstain if you want to truly have a marraige that works. Both of you should get counselling to deal with this. I feel bad that you have already partaken of sexual acts together as I feel this makes it all the harder. Trust in God. He knows your desires. He is the one who created us as sexual beings and His word says that you can flee from sin and be successful. Remember that there is a lot of discussion about this in the Bible so you are absolutely not alone in this. God Bless you as you work towards His desires for your life. You will both be the better for it. I appreciate your sharing.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/2/2010 6:57:03 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4041
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
One of the things that immediately jumped out at me when I read your definition was the idea of "intense arousal" being somehow by itself wrong. By that standard, there would have been many times that I would not have been permitted to be in the presence of my very lovely bride.
I had to re-read this to realize that I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am not talking about our own sex drives (which are completely normal and God given) or that they can be piqued by that special someone we are considering marrying.
Unlike my former congregation mentioned above, which denied that normal sexual feelings could be anything but sinful outside of marriage, I consider what you describe as normal, appropriate and designed by God to bring us together. These are passive responses.
I was talking about an activity done to take that a step further, to take the arousal up a notch or 2; whether done individually or together. IMO that constitutes using that person for personal gratification.
And no, I am not speaking of private masturbation for personal relief either. Whether that is moraly allowable or not should be debated only in the appropriate one stop threads.
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Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/2/2010 9:25:34 AM
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peace77
Posts: 519
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I have been married, divorced, and am now remarried. I know that after having been married the temptation is far more fierce than for someone who has never been married.
I suggest that the 2 of you not spend time alone unless it is in public places with other people around.
Perhaps consider doing a volunteer project together.
You said that you feel, she is the one for you. But, how does she feel?
Bookstores have pre-marital workbooks and discussion guides that you may want to look at for ideas on topics to explore.
For example: What do you think about . . . ?
I'm referring to general discussion topics and NOT -- If we marry, . . .
In other words, work on getting to know each other as much as possible.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/3/2010 10:08:40 AM
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laura...
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Honestly, the answer to your dilemma is either abstain completely from any sexual activity or get married. You may want to rethink a lengthy courtship.
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/3/2010 6:43:44 PM
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Scorpius-Maximus
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/29/2010
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You will all be happy to know that I took her out to a nice dinner and a movie Friday night. We discussed all of this and came to the conclusion that we should abstain completely and get pre-marital counselling, even though we are not engaged. It is obviously moving in that direction for the both of us. I am enquiring at my Church; waiting on my Pastor to return my call. She is also going to enquire at her Church. We figure we can't have too much advice/counselling.
We always have the best time together whether we are going out, or staying at home but Friday night was extremely special. I was concerned about talking to her about this subject before I came on here and got your advice, input and studied more. I was headed in the wrong direction and since I got put on the right path my concerns and aprehension vanished. Friday night was truely phenominal!!!
We are going to Cancun in October. I will probably ask her to marry me then.
I can not thank you enough for setting me straight. God bless you all!
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/4/2010 8:58:44 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3275
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Scorpius-Maximus
You will all be happy to know that I took her out to a nice dinner and a movie Friday night. We discussed all of this and came to the conclusion that we should abstain completely and get pre-marital counselling, even though we are not engaged. It is obviously moving in that direction for the both of us. I am enquiring at my Church; waiting on my Pastor to return my call. She is also going to enquire at her Church. We figure we can't have too much advice/counselling.
We always have the best time together whether we are going out, or staying at home but Friday night was extremely special. I was concerned about talking to her about this subject before I came on here and got your advice, input and studied more. I was headed in the wrong direction and since I got put on the right path my concerns and aprehension vanished. Friday night was truely phenominal!!!
We are going to Cancun in October. I will probably ask her to marry me then.
I can not thank you enough for setting me straight. God bless you all!
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Premarital sex for divorcees - 8/5/2010 7:05:38 PM
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newlife82810
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Joined: 8/5/2010
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I hope that you will find a spiritually healthy resolution.
You mentioned that your exes abused substances and still do. Because I attract substance abusers, I no longer date at all. My ex husband is now on his third marriage. Though it is hurtful that people focus on the broken marriages, those of us who have them did choose those people and to some extent, the result.
Especially in a "new" relationship, there are so many much more important things to consider, rather than the physical...you already know you are attracted to her and have that spark, why not ensure a firm and long lasting foundation by putting the physical aspects aside?
The excitement of the sexual attraction can cloud our judgment...perhaps leading us to choose people that will lead to another broken covenant.
Me, I don't date at all. Men seem unable to get beyond their expectations based on my appearance. If God wants me to be married, He is going to have let me know through some other means than dating.
My prayers are with you.
< Message edited by newlife82810 -- 8/6/2010 9:59:56 AM >
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